FTL2009-02-14: Caller Benjamin

FTL2009-02-14 (14 Feb 2009) with Ian and Mark

(Caller Benjamin is on the line 65 minutes into the show)

Ian: You know, here's the problem. The problem is force. I mean, do you think it's ok to force your neighbor to do things?

(pause)

Benjamin: Well,.. yes.

Ian: Ok, at least you're being honest with us.

(Wait a minute.)

Benjamin: It's ok to force, it's ok to force my, it's ok to force my neighbor to turn to,... to don't pollute with excessive volume and excessive noise, and yeah, perhaps trafficking in narcotics, and having a meth lab explode, yes, and yes.

(There. You said, "at least you're being honest with us" too soon. He said "yes," but included a proviso. The fact that he had to include a proviso to say "yes" means that without the proviso his answer would have been no, and you have to pin him down to that. There are other collers listening who need to see him pinned down to that. Your libertarian leaning listeners don't need to see him pinned down, but the people you're really trying to reach DO need to see him really pinned down. Don't let him side-track the conversation. The question was, do you think it's ok to force your neighbor to do things, without provisos, that is to say, you are initiating the force? They haven't harmed, polluted, threatened force or initiated force against you, do you think it's ok to force them to do things?)

Mark: Well, I can see how you would not want your neighbor to threaten your property in the sense noise pollution or, you know, an explosion going on, but do you think it's ok to threaten your neighbor if they don't give money to your favorite welfare program?

(You started to respond well, show your caller that you see things from his perspective, "I can see how you don't want your neighbor to make too much noise or blow things up, those might be good reasons to use force against your neighbor, they MIGHT be, BUT,... do you think it's ok to..." and here's where you went wrong, "...to force your neighbor to do things when they haven't done anything to you or to anyone else, they haven't harmed anyone, they haven't made too much noise, they haven't endangered anyone, they haven't polluted anything, they haven't threatened force against anyone, they haven't initiated force against you or anyone else, is it ok for you to use force against them?)

Benjamin: You're talking about paying taxes.

(See, you mention giving money to a favorite welfare program, and it gives him a chance to side-track the conversation.)

Mark: Well, you can call it whatever you want.

Benjamin: I think, you know what? This is what I think. I think this really, the problem is, this whole thing, this issue, it still goes back to race, because deep down inside the photograph in people's mind when they think "welfare," they think of the projects...

Ian: Let me tell you, dude...

Mark: That's not what I think. I mean, you're telling me what I think.

(Now we're completely derailed.)

Ian: I've been in plenty of trailer parks, my friend. I've been in plenty of trailer parks down there in Florida and I know exactly who is in those trailer parks, it is plenty of white trash. There's no doubt about that.

Benjamin: Alright so there's a different way of doing things...

Ian: So don't try to say this is about race. Sir, for me, this is all about force. This is all about being threatened with violence and having my house stolen from me, my family destroyed if I don't want to go along with their little system. Whoever it is that "they" are, whether "they" are Republicans or "they" are Democrats, if I don't go along with their plan, they will hurt me, sir. What do you say to that?

(Good, you tried to get back on track with the issue of force,... but why didn't it work? Because you weren't asking the direct question. It sounded like you were complaining. Whae, whae, whae. It's all about THEM using force against ME. They threaten me with violence. They threaten to take my home from me. They threaten to destroy my family. They will hurt me. What do you have to say about that? What happened to the original question? He answered that in the positive and you never pinned him down. Do you think, without any provisos, your neighbor hasn't harmed you or anyone else, he hasn't polluted, he hasn't made too much noise, he hasn't threatened anyone, do you think it's ok to use force against him, to initiate force against him?)

Benjamin: Ok, this is where, I think I can understand where you're coming from. This is called the world press photo awards, and I think it was in the Saint Pete Times today or yesterday, where they had the guy that, 1. It was a picture of this sheriff with his gun drawn in this house that had been foreclosed and this furniture strewn all over the place and abandoned as the people moved out, and it does make you look at the fact that this is happening. Here's this guy creeping around people's house looking in closets, perhaps someone's hiding. He feels threatened. That all goes back to the economy. I guarantee you this. This conversation, you'll pick up people with your point of view when the economy is really really bad, but as the economy gets good, people don't think about going backwards and (?dismargin') and dismantling the government. The government is a very good thing.

(We're totally derailed here. Benjamin is way off, that's obvious to all of us, but it's not obvious to him yet, and it might not be obvious to a bunch of new listeners who just tuned in because you didn't pin Benjamin down.)

Ok, so what. How might this conversation have sounded if we had been able to pin Benjamin down right at the beginning?

Ian: Your neighbor hasn't created any pollution, no loud noises, no explosions, he hasn't used violence against you or anyone else, he hasn't threatened violence against anyone, do you think it's ok, do you think it's RIGHT for you to use force or threat of force against him to make him behave the way you want him to behave?

Benjamin: Well, how can I answer that? It depends on what he's doing.

Ian: Ok, great, so we agree that there are some things your neighbor might do that give you a right to use force or threat of force against him and otherwise, it is wrong for you to use force or threat of force against him, right?

Benjamin: Yeah.

Ian: Ok, great. Do you believe in thought crimes? I mean, is it alright for you to think whatever you want to think because just thinking it does nothing at all to your neighbor?

Benjamin: Right, well, I don't...

Ian: Hold on a minute. I just want to make sure you agree with that, that your neighbor just thinking something doesn't give you a right to use force or threaten to use force against him. It's ok to think whatever you want, right?

Benjamin: Yeah.

Ian: Ok, great. And what about freedom of speech. If I say what I'm thinking, does that give you a right to use force or threat of force against me.

Benjamin: Well, it depends on what you say. If you spread lies about me, that could be damaging to my reputation.

Ian: Fair enough. So if what I say actually damages you, you have a reason to seek restitution from me. So far, we don't need any laws, we just need to know that if I damage you in some way, you have a good reason to seek restitution from me. That applies to speech, does it also apply to actions? If your neighbor's conscience tells him to behave a certain way and he can do that without damaging you or anyone else, or even without interfering with anyone else's freedom to follow their own consciences, do you think that's ok? (we want him to answer "yes" instead of "no" because he's already said "yes" twice before, and three times is a charm. So we don't want to ask him something like "is it right to use force or threaten force against your neighbor just because he's following his conscience?" He would answer "no" to that. You want your callers to say "yes, yes, yes.")

Ian: It's ok for your neighbor to think whatever he wants. It's ok for your neighbor to say whatever he wants so long as he doesn't damage anyone's reputation. If you neighbor's conscience tells him to behave a certain way and he can do so without harming others or interfering with anyone else's freedom of conscience, is it ok for your neighbor to behave that way?

(There's going to be a pause here and then he's going to want to change the subject, if he hasn't already done that.)

Benjamin: Well,... it depends.. I mean.

Ian: No, no, no. I think you want to say "yes," but you realize that if you say "yes" it destroys your whole argument and your support of government. I thank you for the call, Benjamin. 1-800...)